498A: Made for Sita but Surpanakhas are encashing.
498A: Made for Sita but surpanakhas are encashing.
The questions are...
1. does a real sita use 498A? and..
2. how will we stop surpanakha misusing it? and..
3. and is the purpose of such law really served in reality ?
Let us take 4 broad combinations to a marriage and applications of 498A.
In today’s modern world if
1. The boy is like Ram and the girl is like Sita
2. The boy is like Rakshasha and the Girl is like
Surpanakha
3. The boy is like Rakshasha and the Girl is like Sita
4. The boy is like Ram and the girl is like Surpanakha
Case 1:The boy is like Ram and the girl is like Sita:
The questions of 498A does not arise
Case 2:The boy is like Rakshasha and the Girl is like Surpanakha:
They fight it out among themselves if things are wrong or it is ideal match on the other extreme side.
Case 3:The boy is like Rakshasha and the Girl is like Sita:
Well ideally this is the case where 498A is fairly applicable and the guy is deserving of it. But, sita by virtue of her characteristic will NOT AND DOES NOT implicate 498A on the boy and his family. (Like of the cases seen in the society around us, the girl is firm not to cause harm to anyone, thus 498A is not utilized for the reason it should be) Thus the purpose of the very foundation of the law for whom it is dedicated is not fulfilled.
Case 4:The boy is like Ram and the girl is like Surpanakha:
Well well well this is what is happening everywhere, where 498A benefits the Surpanakhas of our society and Rams and his family are reduced to puppets. 498A is misused to the fullest of its capacity and the real motive behind the law it is lost to protect the “ABLA NARI”. Its is highly misused by the nuisance value creators of the society, committing a mockery of the judicial system, by misleading and fooling the entire society including the very law.
This needs to be stopped, as the real purpose is not met and the crooks are at work, making money and going scott free where as Rams and his family members are in jail.
“When the Statistics reveal that a drastic majority of the cases are framed and false why should we allow such laws that encourage injustice?” We need a change in the current scenario.
Inqulab Zindabad.
Jinesh Zaveri
Note: Section 498A of the Indian Penal Code (IPC), which defines the offence of matrimonial cruelty, was inserted into the IPC by an amendment in 1983. Offenders are liable for imprisonment as well as a fine under the section and the offence is non bailable, non-compoundable and cognizable on a complaint made to the police officer by the victim or by designated relatives.
The section provides an explanation that elaborates the meaning of cruelty as follows:
a) any wilful conduct which is of a nature as is likely to drive the woman to commit suicide or to cause grave injury or danger to her life, limb, or health (whether physical or mental) of the woman; or
b) harassment of the woman where such harassment is with a view to coercing her or any person related to her to meet any unlawful demand for any property or valuable security or is on account of failure by her or any person related to her to meet such demand.”
The questions are...
1. does a real sita use 498A? and..
2. how will we stop surpanakha misusing it? and..
3. and is the purpose of such law really served in reality ?
Let us take 4 broad combinations to a marriage and applications of 498A.
In today’s modern world if
1. The boy is like Ram and the girl is like Sita
2. The boy is like Rakshasha and the Girl is like
Surpanakha
3. The boy is like Rakshasha and the Girl is like Sita
4. The boy is like Ram and the girl is like Surpanakha
Case 1:The boy is like Ram and the girl is like Sita:
The questions of 498A does not arise
Case 2:The boy is like Rakshasha and the Girl is like Surpanakha:
They fight it out among themselves if things are wrong or it is ideal match on the other extreme side.
Case 3:The boy is like Rakshasha and the Girl is like Sita:
Well ideally this is the case where 498A is fairly applicable and the guy is deserving of it. But, sita by virtue of her characteristic will NOT AND DOES NOT implicate 498A on the boy and his family. (Like of the cases seen in the society around us, the girl is firm not to cause harm to anyone, thus 498A is not utilized for the reason it should be) Thus the purpose of the very foundation of the law for whom it is dedicated is not fulfilled.
Case 4:The boy is like Ram and the girl is like Surpanakha:
Well well well this is what is happening everywhere, where 498A benefits the Surpanakhas of our society and Rams and his family are reduced to puppets. 498A is misused to the fullest of its capacity and the real motive behind the law it is lost to protect the “ABLA NARI”. Its is highly misused by the nuisance value creators of the society, committing a mockery of the judicial system, by misleading and fooling the entire society including the very law.
This needs to be stopped, as the real purpose is not met and the crooks are at work, making money and going scott free where as Rams and his family members are in jail.
“When the Statistics reveal that a drastic majority of the cases are framed and false why should we allow such laws that encourage injustice?” We need a change in the current scenario.
Inqulab Zindabad.
Jinesh Zaveri
Note: Section 498A of the Indian Penal Code (IPC), which defines the offence of matrimonial cruelty, was inserted into the IPC by an amendment in 1983. Offenders are liable for imprisonment as well as a fine under the section and the offence is non bailable, non-compoundable and cognizable on a complaint made to the police officer by the victim or by designated relatives.
The section provides an explanation that elaborates the meaning of cruelty as follows:
a) any wilful conduct which is of a nature as is likely to drive the woman to commit suicide or to cause grave injury or danger to her life, limb, or health (whether physical or mental) of the woman; or
b) harassment of the woman where such harassment is with a view to coercing her or any person related to her to meet any unlawful demand for any property or valuable security or is on account of failure by her or any person related to her to meet such demand.”
posted by IndianHusbands | 7:20 AM
65 Comments:
Well Come to bloger group . Let cut the nose of Suparnakhas and Kill Ravans .
Laxman still alive , here one more dear .
Let be honest and fight for honesty .
http://www.indiatalking.com/blog/swarup
http://pariwariksuraksha.blogspot.com/
Well said Jinesh, its time we fight against misuse of 498A.
-RK
http://misuse498a.tripod.com
Dude:
If a man is like Ram and a woman is like Sita, they will go separate ways. The woman will languish in some damn forest cause the husband has no ego.
Move beyond stereotypes and cliches.
Neha,
If the choice is upon Jinesh he would have, have u thought of the situation where the situation is imposed on him. And what are u talking about a husband with no ego will leave his wife in a Jungle?(you mean Ambition or Ego, anyway Rama is a charecter everyone knows in India, of course Rama as depicted in the mythology won't be able to survive this rat-race- take these constructs with the modern salt, and I hope u get the drift :).
Else, we just go deeper underground......
Ram never trusted his own judgement. He was never capable of making an informed choice. He relied on hearsay and other's instincts. The particular instance being the episode where Ram decides to disown Sita because some idiots in town decided to go about spreading rumours.
You guys have a story to tell. And a very sad one that. I empathize with the individuals, but you are turning away people when you use idioms or Ravana and Surpanakha and what not. When you pepper your stories with senseless mythical drivel people are likely to not listen to you because it seems a bit fanatic. It seems to me that you guys seek rational behaviour from the law, not absolutes.. they why go about talking about "indianfamily" and what not!!
Your case is that of false use of a law, but instead, it sounds like a tirade against anyone and everyone..
My 2 pence.
Dear Neha,
Thanks for writing on my blog. And sorry to have offended you on surpanakha issue. But, My article targets only wicked ladies in our society, We love sitas, so just chill.
Further on Surpanakha and guys like Ram or Laxman, well, I would like to tell you they are not made for each other, be it ahead of time or be it in past, you may challange it on a different paradigm. And Ram and Sita are made for each other, they can't part ways like you said.
Further, If I put in godly values in my lifestyle what is the harm? If that is fanatic, then it would be a serious perception problem with the perceiver.
And as long as being ahead of time is concerned well I ensure I am, but the Indian law perceives even wicked women as "abla" which they are NOT and unnecessarily pampers them rather than treating them equally, and law needs to be at par with time, if not ahead . So it is the law that needs to amend with time and that was the message that my article carried.
Still if you do not agree, I would extend my right hand to you. A hand of a brother, if you are ready to except it and see how a surpanakha can kill the indian family values by stupid and incompletly drafted laws like Section 498A where a bahu can lie and put the sisters and mothers of her husband behind bars without proof. want to know more? you may write to me personally too. I would like to welcome you my sister to this hell, you may have a tour.
Sentiments and Kind Regards,
Jinesh Zaveri.
Dear Neha
From your message , you have proved that today there is no support for Modern Sita !!!
So let all the girls go as per idology of Modern Suparnakhs and Ravans .
Yes you are right , i asked to the whole nation , is there any Laxman to save Modern Sita , or only Ravans are there for support Modern Suparnakhs ???
Till date we have not got the answer ??
Any self respecting women , who belives in hard working , never ever use the 498A . Suppose you want to leave your husabnd , just file the divorce , you will get it . But the problems comes , when a Modern Suparnaks want some thing by balckmailling , cheating ... that is the reason Supreme court of India says this is a Legal Terrorism , In the last 60 years of history they never ever says any thing regarding any other IPC.
Dont wory , we Indian men are fool , immuture and will try to learn from the Western men , how a western women beg to a western men for a live together forget about marriage , beg for a part time father for their child .
One more thing i would like to tell , do you know who was Raja Ram Mohan Roy , a men or a women ??
Who was Iswar Chandra Bidya shagar , was a men or women ??
You belive or not , crime is crime , punishment should be as per crime ..LAW should be Crime based .. not by sex ,caste or religion based .
To build a relationship required a lot of sacrifice and pain , but to break a relationship required only two secends .. take a relationship of friend , brother/sister , husband/wife ... but one relationship never ever finsih that is the relationship of parents and child .
Today WHO ( World Health Orginasation ) , says the bigest problem for India is the Non-caring Nature of Daughter-in Law , they abuse the age old parents , throw them out of house , diswon thier child from them ...this is a legal terrirosm and for that forget any punishment , there is no warning for them .
At last i would like to ask one question : Are you a child of a honest Parents ?? Have taken your honest mother milk ??
Now just think , if any one abuse your mother in the road what you will do ???
Now tell me , when a dishonest daughter-in -law abuse our mother , what punishment you recomended ???
Let be honest and fight for honest people , irrespective of sex , religion and caste . Crime is Crime and punishment as per Crime .. Stop this terrorist activity in the name of women well fare .. the real women well fare will be when you give a good eduction , self employment for women , not grabing the husband money and property in dishonest way ..
Hope you are a honest child of a honest parents and will do some thing for Honest people .
regards
swarup
Hi brothers,
I am writing here for the first time although I have subscribed to yahoo group and read all the mails.
The likes of Nehas would never learn. She is basking in the warm comfort of a foreign land, knowing very little of the draconian law ie. IPC 498A. She seems unmarried and too young. She might be v intelligent but of course too in experienced also. This is just a piece of some writing (article) to her because she has not undergone the pain like we did. So, I would sieze this opportunity to phrase what we guys are going through. I hope that would give a better picture to Ms. Neha. No emotional talk here and no request for empathizing.
There lives a happily married couple. If the guys wants to walk away from marriage its hell bells. But, if a lady elopes with her servant, the husband stays put.
We are more against the misuse of the law, not against the law itself.
Please do not make assumptions. I am engaging in a very civil dialogue here and you guys are making it personal.
First of all, I am young - but let that not cloud your judgement. I have a similar issue going on in my family where we are being harassed by a woman. I have been extremely patient with you guys even before.
I have worked with a women's organisation and have seen both sides of the story.
My issue is this - when religious idioms are used (I consider myself to be pretty much religious), the idiom overpowers the issue.
The issue here is of a law that is not equal in its treatment of people. It is gender biased in a different way. It looks at men and women in isolation instead of seeing relationships and the context.
I have seen all your websites.. and the 10% of sane arguments are lost in the constant drivel of the other 90%.
As for basking in the warmth of a foreign country.. I have been err.. basking here for about 2 months, and the sun here isn't worth basking in. I am married, and (Thank God!) to a wonderful man, and we're on great terms with both the families. I'd like to think that my mother-in-law is closer to me than she is to her own son at times. (Like I said, Don't make assumptions!)
If you really want to be heard - focus on case studies, on your ACTUAL stories (NOT generalizations), on events (and not parallels in the mythical realm).
I came in good faith and you guys refused to listen to me. Isn't it a bit similar to the predicament you find yourselves in???
And Swarup,
I was incredibly polite to you. There is absolutely no need to ask me question on General Knowledge.
Link to facts, not to my ignorance.
Neha and Guys,
I guess there are advantages and disadvantages in using Mythical idioms... but we all have understood what each other is saying, by now, isn't it :).
Neha has a point, and I have observed this feedback from a lot of other guys/gals. In our hurt and anger we do seem to be fanatic and the perceiver could mistake us for MCPs. SO lets take her well intended feedback and temper our communications(whenever possible, when we are not raging with fury, which is a rare situation!:).
Neha, u mentioned that u too are facing some girls harassemnt, want to share that with us?. Just to break the ice and see if we all can communicate instead of throw flak all around.
We are hurt, we are angry, but lets be sane and articulate. Lets use another idiom from mythology... Maya makes us feel sad when we should be happy, its the saem which makes us quarell when we actually need to communicate and resolve things.
This is not really about misuse of the law, thats just the symptom, its really about values to sustain a family, love, respect, empathy, self-respect, etc.
So, be happy
Deep
Deeperunderground:
Unfortunately we are going through a delicate period in that experience where perhaps talking about it in an open forum is not an ideal situation.
Nevertheless, it is a tough time for our family. As a feminist, it has taken me some time to grapple with the issue (that has been going on for a year and a half now), however, my husband's family and I retain our faith in basic values. These values don't have much to do with sustaining a family, as they have to do with sustaining some sense of goodwill in the world.
Trust me, I understand your anger. But in the manner that you articulate it, you lose out on a lot of empathy. The empathy that is crucial to encouraging any kind of reaction from media, legislature or the society as a whole. (I understand that you wouldn't want sympathy)
My suggestion to you is this - use the very same syntax of law to change what you have to change. Respect, Gender neutrality, Perspective, Legal equality and Justice. The concept of saving families isn't up my alley, but the notion of justice, honesty and commitment definitely is.
Dear Neha,
Great!!! We welcome your views in good faith and you are presuming that we guys refused to listen to you. Now Neha, Isn't it a bit similar to the predicament that you are talking about?
Coz we would have Ignored you completely, which is not a fact.
If you too are wanting to share with us a similar problem that you are facing as you said. Then, we would like to know that. Do write to us in person.
Neha and other guys
last thousand of years we had given all the comfort , respect , try to save our women , sacrifice our life , and we will do the same for future also till the time whole world dont get crush ( provied you also dont think that 600 milion man are all rapist in india ) .
I have not got the answer , what punishment you recomended when a dishonest daughter-in law abuse our mother and sister ???
Our mother and sister are not a women ??
How you justyfy the protection need a dishonest daughter-in -law , when a 65 years old mother had completed all the responsibility as a wife , as a daughter , as mother and one day some young power baby comes and term her a criminal and send to jail without any investigation , as she can not accept her illogical demand ???
Neha , in our SIF group more than 70 % volenter are mother ,sister .. they are not women ?? Would you have guts to face them and tell your women orginasation to save them ?? Recently i have seen women orginasation are fighting to save some 10 call girls who had been arrested by police in delhi .
How you justify , that they have enough time and money to save the call girls , but those mother and sister to be send behind the bar without a investigation .. hope your women orginasation will not term them worse than call girls ???
My question to all women activitisty .. this 498A misused for last 17 years .. what they have done for save those women ??
Still i am searching the answer from the women activitist .
I belive women liberasation is men liberasation .. but if the women orginasation teach to hate male , who will be looser ??
If the institution of marriage , who will suffer men or women ??
It is a time to ask your self , have you really done any women well fare by making this 498A???
Yes swarup is harsh , swarup is arrogent , but against whome ??
Few years back i was also involved with your so called women orginasation and contrubute a lot of my hard earning money .. but the day i saw a 85 Years old women in the court for getting the bail .. i say myself enough is enough .. let me try to stop this legal terrirosm .
There is nothing to accept forcefully .. if you think the voice is right .. go ahead and do something on field .. instead of fighting with the guy like swarup .
Swarup knows what he is doing and waht is his aim .
So neha , tell and try to convience to your associated women orginasation to stop this legal terrirosm if they really want a women wellfare .
regards
swarup
I dont think I deserve the thanks from Jinesh Zaveri as I have not even made an iota of any contribution from my end. My style has always been curt and surgical types :-)
One thing I always say to all people. There would ALWAYS be a great different (read rift) between people who understand and those who experience. No matter how hard one tries, still the nonchalant attitude remains. People who are v understanding and assuming they are also intelligent would go to any length to convince all that they have VICARIOUS feelings for tortured husbands. People dont die for others so how could a happily married person experience our pains, the best he/she does is understand ... err that is what they tell us!
NEHA,
you seem not a part of india and what is happenning in most of the families.
Infact, the dead end point of India itself will be the West accordingly in coming years, this NONE CAN STOP, as it is NATURE and GLOBALIZATION.
India got about 80% population in rural area and of them again, 71% are illeterates, so Question of domestic violence and daughter-in-law treatment is absolutely dead. when women of such family gets harassed, they never go to police. Reason being, police abuse them and send them back or compromise them, making her not to report to police again.
This is TRUTH AND HAPPENING IN INDIA. ALSO, NO ONE CAN STOP THIS, AS BECAME PROCESS OF NATURAL RURAL HABITATION OF LIFE.
Remaining population in urban areas of 30%, 85% are educated. Significant point being when 85% are educated, regardless of male or females they are, they can use section 498a or gender based laws to harass human beings.
Particularly, What all I need now is more and more 498As so that, new terrorism can be unleashed and faster damage in the society. People can awake swiftly to mend the whole other problems in the country. For every 5 good guys there are 4 bad guys in the society. This mean 4 guys are not bad, if governing body keeps powerful boundaries in the name of human laws. people are like sheeps in the sheepyards. As long as the boundary exists, all sheeps remain intact and in discipline of that boundary. If boundary breaks, this is what happenning to the current India.
India, believed on HUMAN TRUST laws(not in paper) since centuries. This doesn't work. Human himself is viable to do bad things, it is their psychology(except 1 or 2 in millions).
NO TRUSTS, ONLY PAPER AND STRICT GOVERANCE OF THAT PAPER IN THE FORM OF BOUNDARY WILL WORK. I SAY 498A IS ITSELF NOT A SECTION AND DOESN'T HAVE A LOOP HOLE. SECTION ITSELF BELONGS TO STONE AGE. I CONSIDER BUREACRACY, POLITICIANS WHO HAVE MITIGATED MINDS ARE LARGELY DANGEROUS THAN TERRORISTS.
Terrorists affect a section of people. But people, who are responsible for whole population, if, have less in-depth sense or knowledge about laws and governance of the society. It leads to legal terrorism or putrification of society. That is what happening in india. No one can imagine except deep social engineers or IIMs where India is leading towards, a complete irrepairably damaged society. If it not stopped now, for minimal damages, it can't be never and ever.
India is in real danger.
Some one pls. spread about the laws and governance of the indian society leading to, everywhere on the net...if it is spread to 4 people, you will be benfited by 8 boons from the lord or always good happen in your family...spread everywhere on the net...till wisdom starts growing in throughtout india, making them to move away from karma kinda thoughts and/or believing like god/s have hats or crowns on their heads. That brings them to reality.
I agree with Neha that blindly trying to shoot down anyone who disagrees with one's view point is not going to get much support. On the contrary, it will turn people off and makes you guys sound like fanatics when in truth you are not. Please realize it guys that by using harsh and vituperative comments that sound like a rant instead of a reasoned argument, you are harming your own cause!
People will support only those who are politically correct.
Men's rights are not politically correct. So, we will not get support in conventional way.
Truth about 498a is enough to create wide scale panic in society. That will generate support.
The baby which crys gets milk. Thats what women organisations did. Use a sledge hammer and people will start respecting you.
Sangyabalya and other senior members did try to talk with Human Rights people and other NGOs in a very reasonable way for years.
Do you know what happened ?
Nothing. The Human Rights bastards and other NGOs told us to get lost.
Today, we talk in offensive tone and people are writing about us.
Look at political parties and the tone that they use. Have you ever heard how Indira Jaisingh or Brinda Karat or even Madhu Kishwar talk ?
They talk with full levels of aggressiveness and they get the results.
Feminists and pseudo-liberal bastards will never support us. Create panic in them, they will fall in line.
Please read these reviews:
The war against boys
also
Who Stole Feminism ?
(In short Feminism is going Fascist way.)
Sommers has a gift for exposing hypocrisy, misinformation, propaganda and outright lies in a readable and often delightful manner that has made her the bête noire of gender feminists. In this carefully and exhaustively argued and generally convincing critique of the post modern movement she employs a STARTLING TECHNIQUE to embarrass the feminist fringe: SHE QUOTES THEM. Wow. She begins in the Preface with the now infamous claim by Gloria Steinem (from her Revolution from Within: A Book of Self-Esteem) and Naomi Wolf (The Beauty Myth) that in the United States "about 150,000 females die of anorexia each year." Hmm. Sounds scary. But it turns out that the number is less than one hundred.
This sort of distortion and falsification and just plain stupidity is typical of the totalitarian-minded feminist fringe (see Warren Farrell's The Myth of Male Power: Why Men Are the Disposable Sex (1993) for more documentation). Where this is particularly egregious and harmful is in academia where gender feminists hold sway over not only their cowed and impressionable students but over a bullied and complacent faculty and administration. Sommers devotes a substantial portion of this book to detailing just how gender feminists have employed Stalinist techniques in order to twist the curriculum their way, to rewrite and distort history, and to secure greater employment for those of a similar stripe. Very revealing and sadly amusing is her report from some of the feminist conferences she has attended. The way they shout out against the truth and shout down anyone who expresses a contrary view really is something out of a storm trooper rally. Shame on a lot of people who should know better.
But feminism hasn't really been stolen. The substantial gains toward a complete social, economic and political equality are very real and very much with us. For this we can thank the real feminists, whom Sommers calls "equity feminists" for their courage, strength, hard work and level-headed intelligence. For the fringe elements, the privileged and pampered janie-come-latelies like Susan Faludi, Andrea Dworkin and the particularly obscene Catharine MacKinnon, all I can say is they couldn't even caddy for women like Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and later, Betty Friedan and Germaine Greer, women who really cared about women's rights and were effective in helping to secure them. What the fringe feminists have succeeded in doing with their pathological hatred of men is embarrass themselves and give comfort to the misogynists among us. Sad indeed. That whirring sound you hear is the women of the nineteenth century suffragette movement rolling over in their graves; and the sorrowful laments in the background are the cries of the really disadvantaged and victimized women world-wide in places like India and Iraq, Bangladesh and the former Soviet Union who would dearly love to deal with the discriminations American fringe feminists are whining about (even the real ones). I wonder if the likes of Faludi, Dworkin and MacKinnon would be willing to work for women's rights and against patriarchy in, say, Afghanistan or Iran...
Sommers herself is a sharp-eyed feminist of the old school, a woman who knows that distortions and brown-shirt tactics cannot do women or humans any good. Her book is an attempt to set the ship aright, a loud and somewhat stringent call for better leadership and a more diversified (and sophisticated, I might add) crew of people willing to work hard and effectively for gender equality. The spoiled little rich girl bully feminism exemplified by those targeted in this book doesn't speak for the vast majority of women struggling to find themselves as human beings, and to free themselves from the shackles and the delusions of sexism.
My take on this whole issue is
Ram and Sita to be taken in a positive connotation. They are people with good humanitarian and moral values
Ravana and Suparnakha to be taken with negative connotation. They are immoral or people who lack humanitarian values. Suparnakha is one more like to file a false 498a.
Agree if we write to PM, President etc we should be more straightforward and talk in terms of law and fact and not drag them towards mythical stories.
My thoughts on this. I think the point that Neha is trying to put forth is correct. Let us take constructive criticisms positively.
Peter II
Sub:Barbaric law - IPC 498A /DV Act - Our Mother /Sister are not Women !!!!!
Recently Ms. Neha says ( She Claimed to be a women right activist ) , She will Prefer to advice not to continue a Married Life with a Modern Ram like Husband , as he dont have ego , he dont respect his own Judgement .
Yes , She is very right and that is the reason , today you will find all the Modern Ram , Laxman and their whole family behind the bar under Barbaric LAW IPC 498A . ( DV Act , where the husband and thier family will be thrown out of House in the name of Verbal abuse , Mental harrasement and economical abuse , but for the same offece for a dishonest wife forget any punishment , there is no provision for a warning to them ) .
Where a whole sale free lincence given to all Modern Suparnakhsa and Modern Ravans and to further propsed Domestic Violence Bill will ensure that in our Society there should be any Modern Ram , Modern Laxman .. only Modern Ravans will be there .
Hope the women activist like Neha , Indra Jai Sigh and all there supporter , want a situation in India where the Indian Women should stand in Delhi National High Way to get a men for a live together ( forget marriage ) , to get a part time Father for their Child .
Few days back one of my friend asked me , Swarup , if the Institution of marriage get killed how that will effect to Indian men ?? I think the Indian Women will face a very dangarous Life . The Institution of marriage required for a Women , not for a Men.
But the girls like Neha ,Indra jai Singh and thier supporters will not understand . They want a whole sale free lincence for adultry relationship , whole sale free lincence for Robery , blackmailling and dishonest way to earn the money .
The campain Save Indian Famly , should be their Campain , but instead of that they are cheating the whole nation and digging the foot for all Indian women , and our goverment are palying the Vote bank game , and showing the Whole Nation that they are doing Women Well fare .
Very Interesting !!! This was my question to Neha and all other women activitist , whould any one will reply , as till date I have not got my answer , when they will stop this legal terrorism in India in the name of Women Well Fare ???
"Last thousand of years we had given all the comfort , respect , try
to save our women , sacrifice our life , and we will do the same for
future also till the time whole world dont get crush ( provied you
also dont think that 600 milion man are all rapist in india ) .
I have not got the answer , what punishment you recomended when a
dishonest daughter-in law abuse our mother and sister ???
Our mother and sister are not a women ??
How you justyfy the protection need a dishonest daughter-in -law ,
when a 65 years old mother had completed all the responsibility as a
wife , as a daughter , as mother and one day some young power baby
comes and term her a criminal and send to jail without any
investigation , as she can not accept her illogical demand ???
Neha , in our SIF group more than 70 % volenter are mother ,sister ..
they are not women ?? Would you have guts to face them and tell your
women orginasation to save them ?? Recently I have seen women
orginasation are fighting to save some 10 call girls who had been
arrested by police in delhi .
How you justify , that they have enough time and money to save the
call girls , but those mother and sister to be send behind the bar
without a investigation .. hope your women orginasation will not term
them worse than call girls ???
My question to all women activitisty .. this 498A misused for last 17
years .. what they have done for save those women ??
Still I am searching the answer from the women activitist .
I belive women liberasation is men liberasation .. but if the women
orginasation teach to hate male , who will be looser ??
If the institution of marriage get killed, who will suffer men or women ??
It is a time to ask your self , have you really done any women well
fare by making this 498A???
Yes swarup is harsh , swarup is arrogent , but against whome ??
Few years back I was also involved with your so called women
orginasation and contrubute a lot of my hard earning money .. but the
day I saw a 85 Years old women in the court for getting the bail .. I
say myself enough is enough .. let me try to stop this legal
terrirosm .
There is nothing to accept forcefully .. if you think the voice is
right .. go ahead and do something on field .. instead of fighting
with the guy like swarup .
Swarup knows what he is doing and waht is his aim .
So neha , tell and try to convience to your associated women
orginasation to stop this legal terrirosm if they really want a women
wellfare . "
Regards
Swarup Sarkar
Reference :-
http://indiatalking.com/blog/swarup/1308/
http://indiatalking.com/blog/swarup/1328/
Disclimer :This is totally writer personnel Views only. You may have different opinion. The name and place changed to protect the Persons Identity.
Swarup:
You say:
last thousand of years we had given all the comfort , respect , try to save our women , sacrifice our life , and we will do the same for future also till the time whole world dont get crush
My response:
Since we evolved into human beings, men and women have been involved in MUTUAL protection, security and have sacrificed. My personal opinion is that patriarchy on an average favours men, and ignores women. Women however can also be the vehicles of patriarchy, and be as oppressive as patriarchal men.
I don't think the sacrifice through history can be termed as men's, because women have done as much. History unfortunately is written by the victor, and patriarchy has always hailed the male to be the victor.
You say:
How you justify , that they have enough time and money to save the call girls , but those mother and sister to be send behind the bar without a investigation .. hope your women orginasation will not term them worse than call girls ???
My response:
I don't find the need to justify the need to protect commercial sex workers. But nor would I say that other women don't deserve a movement to their name. I don't think one comes at the expense of the other.
You say:
If the institution of marriage , who will suffer men or women ??
My response:
I think your question lacks articulate wording, but I think what you are attempting to say is that women need the institution more than men.
Well, I think both need or don't need the institution equally. I personally don't think of marriage as an institution, or something that needs to be sacrosant. The issue is that marriages become hellholes for most ppl bcoz in India we think of them as sactimonious bonds that cannot be broken. I don't favour exploitation of ANY person... regardless of their sex.
You seem curiously unwilling to listen to ANY other viewpoint, unless it blindly echoes what you are saying.
I do not refute the fact that you have undergone considerable pain and have suffered from injustice, but when you rant - you don't make partners in the movement. The language you use will appeal to anti-homosexual lobby, pro-VHP lobby, and not particularly to justice related lobby.
You will have to make the choice - Who do you choose to ally with?
More answers
You say:
I have not got the answer , what punishment you recomended when a
dishonest daughter-in law abuse our mother and sister ???
My response:
My punishment to men and women is the same. If a man abuses his wife's mother and her sister, and a woman abuses her mother-in-law/ sister-in-law - they have in essence committed similar crimes. The punishment therefore is pretty much the same.
You say:
you seem not a part of india and what is happenning in most of the families.
My response:
This - is no way to argue sir. I have lived in India for all my life except for two months - and I don't think that's relevant either!
You say:
Where a whole sale free lincence given to all Modern Suparnakhsa and Modern Ravans and to further propsed Domestic Violence Bill will ensure that in our Society there should be any Modern Ram , Modern Laxman .. only Modern Ravans will be there .
My response:
A more rational way of putting the same into words is this - Exploitation is made easier by laws such as 498a, which do not ensure that innocent people (regardless of their sex) have access to justice. The possibility of misuse of Domestic Violence Act (post the proposed Bill) is high, and the legislature needs to be alerted exploitation does not have a male or female character to it, and that the significant loopholes need to be plugged if the Bill is to address the issues it raises. The vulnerable must be protected, be it a man or a woman.
If that's what you are attempting to communicate - I don't have significant issues with it.
Thanks Neah , hope a lot of women orginasation will understand this that heating business menvs women is only for vote bank .
The law maker should make the law on Crime based not on the gender based .
If the make the law in gender based , sorry they will dig thier own foot , that is the reason today in our SIF group 70 % volenter are women , not men !!!
If the women orginasation dont understand this basis , they will definetely get the punishment .
Our giht agaisnt Modern Suparnakhs and Nodern Ravans will continue .. as we learnt from our child hood .. that after our death we are not going to take our moeny and wealth with us .. if i can save a single family and punish a single family of Suparnaks and ravans .. that will be my own satisfication .. like that lacks of swarup will come out .. the proof is in last one month we made the world feminist to hear us , every news paper editor to her us .
We will mot allow them to cheat our women in the name of vote bank .
regards
swarup
More:
But if you are implying that all women who get married (and are err.. daughters in law), then I definitely have an issue with it.
The other issues that really seem out of context in your movement are the focus on Indian Family (A little sociological survey will reveal that there is no such thing as an Indian Family), and the drivel of myth and legend.
Like I said - You seem to think that your rage will get you noticed. Your rage may get you into a few papers or a few blogs, but it will not put into focus the issue you want to address - Which is unequal treatment by the law.
If your movement is against feminists, you completely lose all credibility.
Oh, and incidentally, Who Stole Feminism? is ONE piddly book in a sea of texts on feminism. Selective amnesia isn't going to do anyone any good.
Neha,
I went through some of your arguments. One thing worth noting is that you do not lose calm, which is commendable. You arguments are good, but some of them are out of context and may make sense when taken out in isolation. However, a lot of people who have been commenting here have had lost a significant portion of their mental peace thanks to Indian Penal code, law makers, implementers and judiciary. That is why you see they get personal as soon as they see something which they can relate to in their own life. It is sort of catch 22 situation. Mostly true for Indians. Unless Indians (not all, but a lot) can emotionaly relate to a thing/incident, they do not care, but when they do not care, they cannot relate to it emotionally.
Once they are emotional, they take the situation personally and get involved.
When you say: "The possibility of misuse of Domestic Violence Act (post the proposed Bill) is high, and the legislature needs to be alerted exploitation does not have a male or female character to it, and that the significant loopholes need to be plugged if the Bill is to address the issues it raises. The vulnerable must be protected, be it a man or a woman.".
In July Supreme Court did ask the law makers the same : to plug the loopholes in 498a and curb the legal terrorism. What happened? Law makers came up with another bill (Domestic Violence) which is like a spider web, most of it is loop holes.
Crime is crime, it should never be sex biased. Domestic violence bill and 498a are sex biased. They need to be amended. They both assume that women are always at the receiving end. What happens when husbands are constantly nagged by their wife? Is it not emotional violence?
- Satya
At last neha , dont worry about us , we had multidimentional stategy and the different charter fit on that different stategy , you decide what charcter you want and work accordingly in your own way ( We need mhatma as well as Subash Chandra also ).Stop legal terrorism is not a child game !!!Neither you know me or i know you , hence work as per what you belive is right and let others to do the work what they belive is right .
tell your all so called women orginasation , their business is going to stop very soon , because till date the responsibility and free hand we had given to them , whatever they asked , we whole heartly accepted .. but sorry now they should be ready to get their own medicine .
Indian men/women are not so foolish , they understand who is Modern Suparnakhas and Modern Sita and what is the meanning of Modern Ram,laxman and Modern Ravans .
Just wait and watch , how those modern suparnakhs will stand in Delhi national High way after misusing the 498A or DV act .. time will say .
They themself will aske to make the correction this all barbaric law , the way Ms.Madhu Kiswar , Sobha de , swati despandey , monobana gupta .. like that a lot had come out .
Sorry in our heart no sympath is there for Moder suparnaks ( let tehm tell wahtever they say ) , we will cut their nose ... because still in india some men are there who had taken the honest mother milk and they will accept to be shoot in front of India gate or hang till the death .. to stop this legal terrorism required a lot of Modern Bhaghat Sing , a lot of Modern Jatin Das , a lot of Modern Subash Chandra bose ....
We are all ready take up the matter with world anti terrorist orginasation regarding this legal terrorism .
In last three month , able to push all those modern suparnakhs back foot by quashing the 498A !!!
A lot of modern suparnakhs are crying to finish the 498A by a compromise , we say let the court send us in jail , but till the time we will ensure that the rest of the life they also will be behind the court . No divorce , no maintance , no allumoney ... we want back our modern suparnakhs .. we want back our kidnaped child .. for taht ready to go any extend ,because we have to cut their nose , otherwise a lot of modern sita will be behind the bar by thier activity .. they blame us that we want to divorce them , now we say we want them back , let them come in court and say the truth .
Regards
swarup
Till the point you keep talking of cutting off noses, mother's milk and what not, you will continue to alienate people from your concerns.
Because in your longish rant, your point - was completely lost. As for your multidimensional strategy - the only dimension that seems tangible is the one filled with inarticulate rage.
You are dealing with the law - Not a Hindi movie - where you throw about dialogues about drinking mother's milk. As for the Ramayan - a little lesson may not be out of the place. You refer to a very common text known as Tulsidas's Ramayana (As opposed to the more authoritative version of Valmiki.) Besides, the other version of Ramayana is the Kamba Ramayana.
If you remember, in Valmiki Ramayan, Ram asks Laxman to bow down to
Ravan and obtain wisdom from him. Laxman is surprised, but Ram tells
him that Ravan is the only person who can show him (Ram) the path of
wisdom, and the only reason he (Ram) cannot ask Ravan himself is
because he is the one who has slain Ravan. Laxman, being the arrogant
man that he is, stands near the dying Ravan's head and asks him rudely for all his knowledge. Ram then reminds him gently that one NEVER talks to a Guru that way..
Don't assume the whole world reads Tulsidas, or understand the linear understanding of myth.
Satya:
Thank you for noticing the patience. :) I believe in dialogue. As long as people can keep talking (without pulling the other down, without insulting) solutions do come up.
As a person who is involved in a "relationship dispute", you will agree that lack of communication and clarity of intent is one of the biggest pitfalls.
I understand when you say that some of my statements maybe out of context, however, I perceive your statements similarly. Because it sounds like unbridled rage. It lacks coherency. And sometimes it even lacks focus.
If and when you do find yourself in the middle of a PIL, or a legal movement, you will appreciate that both emotional involvement and articulation (coherent, secular and focussed) are necessary. Because, like me - most people will come from a background where this MAY not have happened in their family. So don't drive them away with strong language or flashy ideas.
Sumanth,
For starters, thank you for being polite.
About CHS's book. I don't think very highly of a lot of Feminist theory. Extremism is not something I am comfortable with because extremism doesn't consider contexts. The truth usually lies somewhere in.
Equity feminism may have its own context, but within India, different regions and communities suffer from their own peculiar histories - and in a sense I don't think Feminism is a band-aid theory that can be blindly applied.
But when you say that men have to fight their battles against patriarchy - It is the one sentiment that I respect.
And while I recognize that both men and women are victims of patriarchy, the loss of opportunity (historically) has accrued more to women. For me Feminism has one working definition - Equal Opportunity. And equal - means equal, not greater or lesser.
Whether or not others use myths and legends, a movement like this is best based on evidence, proof and research. But that, is my personal opinion. Which I voiced. What I was not prepared for is the personal attack on this page.
At 23 I am young, but not an idiot. So while I respect your average age, your bank accounts (As you remind me), your educational qualifications etc., I have my own set of credentials, but I believe in the virtue of my arguments, so I won't throw them in.
Perhaps it is my own idealism that causes me to believe that dialogue is possible. And obviously it will take years of cynicism and personal attacks to get to that point.
As for my relative. Thank you for your concern. I will get him to look at your stuff and ask him to get in touch with you if he feels comfortable. This is a very close relative of mine, and I feel all his pain, so it's a bit unfair to say that I don't know any of what might be going on here.
If you run through my comments, you will find that I never once picked up a fight. It's not how I operate. Because in anger we say things we don't really mean. We're pushed to corners, and solutions never emerge.
However, I am puzzled. Do you guys think that me not fighting, or not getting enraged is a sign of me accepting defeat?? (Which in its own way is a fallacy since I wasn't fighting in the first place!)
However, I am puzzled. Do you guys think that me not fighting, or not getting enraged is a sign of me accepting defeat?? (Which in its own way is a fallacy since I wasn't fighting in the first place!)
- Yes neha you and your all women activitist are fighting , but fighting for Modern Suparnakhs .
If not the below question still you intentionally ket unanswered ??
My question to all women activitisty .. this 498A misused for last 17
years .. what they have done for save those women ??
I have not got the answer , what punishment you recomended when a
dishonest daughter-in law abuse our mother and sister ???
Our mother and sister are not a women ??
How you justyfy the protection need a dishonest daughter-in -law ,
when a 65 years old mother had completed all the responsibility as a
wife , as a daughter , as mother and one day some young power baby
comes and term her a criminal and send to jail without any
investigation , as she can not accept her illogical demand ???
Tell me in which section you will punish those dishonest daughter in law ??
Now i have a strong dought you really have taken the honest mother milk or not ???
Yes we say no to famisiom , we want gender quality , we say no to domestic violence bill , we want domestic harmoney bill .
But the feminist dont want that , and they are trying to fool the people and doing the business and earning money in dishonest way .
Our fight against Modern Suparnakhs and Modern Ravans , if you dont have brain , we are not responsible .. go and ask to your so called feminist people what they want , Modern Ram , Modern Laxman or Modern Ravans ...
regards
swarup
Like I said - You seem to think that your rage will get you noticed. Your rage may get you into a few papers or a few blogs, but it will not put into focus the issue you want to address - Which is unequal treatment by the law.
- For this a lot of other way are there .
- we dont want the modern suparnakhas and modern ravan waht they say .
- Supreme court of India says this is a legal terrorism .
- Kolkata High court says we have save to those had lost the job .
What more you want ?? Politician dont brother for common man let it be men or women and the sorry , they do it because still in the society some people like your think are avaliable who called that they are educated , sorry this is wrong education .
Just wait and watch , how we save our mother and sister .. time will tell . Few month back a lot of people like you told us a lot of thing , today all had shut thier mouth .
regards
swarup
But if you are implying that all women who get married (and are err.. daughters in law), then I definitely have an issue with it.
- We always say dishonest daughter in law - they are modern suparnakhs .
Your logic can be accepted if you agree that the women born in one section of society and men born in another section of society .
Hope you will agree , that men and women born in the same society and in the same family .
If not , i have strong dought on your education , what you have gathered .
At last Neha , i am with any one , who accept that Crime is Crime and the punishment of Criminal will be as per Crim not by sex , caste or religion , this is a small contrubtion from my side .. people will jedge and it is upto them they accept or not .
You dont worry , your so called faminisim nothing but legal terrorism , we want harmoney , we want gender quality .
regards
swarup
At 23 I am young, but not an idiot. So while I respect your average age, your bank accounts (As you remind me), your educational qualifications etc., I have my own set of credentials, but I believe in the virtue of my arguments, so I won't throw them in.
- Yes you are not a Idoit . that is the reason you say ""Dude:
If a man is like Ram and a woman is like Sita, they will go separate ways. The woman will languish in some damn forest cause the husband has no ego.
Move beyond stereotypes and cliches. ""
It is not your mistake , your friend circle and with whome you have worked teaches you . It is not with you , all modern suparnakhs are having the same mind set and they belive to the idology of Modern Suparnakhs and want that in the name of Feminisim , whole sale free lincence for a adultry relationship , legal terrorism , free and dishonest way to earn money without taking any responsibility .. like that a lot more ......
Dont worry we will give all , after cutting the nose , let you all feminist enjoy with our money , property , because we are not going to take our money and property with us after death .
So chear up and enjoy and continue this legal terrorism and punish more and more age old sick parents , pregent sister , small small child ....
I believe....
Infact, the dead end point of India itself will be the West accordingly in coming years, this NONE CAN STOP, as it is NATURE and GLOBALIZATION.
India got about 80% population in rural area and of them again, 71% are illeterates, so Question of domestic violence and daughter-in-law treatment is absolutely dead. when women of such family gets harassed, they never go to police. Reason being, police abuse them and send them back or compromise them, making her not to report to police again.
This is TRUTH AND HAPPENING IN INDIA. ALSO, NO ONE CAN STOP THIS, AS BECAME PROCESS OF NATURAL RURAL HABITATION OF LIFE.
Remaining population in urban areas of 30%, 85% are educated. Significant point being when 85% are educated, regardless of male or females they are, they can use section 498a or gender based laws to harass human beings.
Particularly, What all I need now is more and more 498As so that, new terrorism can be unleashed and faster damage in the society. People can awake swiftly to mend the whole other problems in the country. For every 5 good guys there are 4 bad guys in the society. This mean 4 guys are not bad, if governing body keeps powerful boundaries in the name of human laws. people are like sheeps in the sheepyards. As long as the boundary exists, all sheeps remain intact and in discipline of that boundary. If boundary breaks, this is what happenning to the current India.
India, believed on HUMAN TRUST laws(not in paper) since centuries. This doesn't work. Human himself is viable to do bad things, it is their psychology(except 1 or 2 in millions).
NO TRUSTS, ONLY PAPER AND STRICT GOVERANCE OF THAT PAPER IN THE FORM OF BOUNDARY WILL WORK. I SAY 498A IS ITSELF NOT A SECTION AND DOESN'T HAVE A LOOP HOLE. SECTION ITSELF BELONGS TO STONE AGE. I CONSIDER BUREACRACY, POLITICIANS WHO HAVE MITIGATED MINDS ARE LARGELY DANGEROUS THAN TERRORISTS.
Terrorists affect a section of people. But people, who are responsible for whole population, if, have less in-depth sense or knowledge about laws and governance of the society. It leads to legal terrorism or putrification of society. That is what happening in india. No one can imagine except deep social engineers or IIMs where India is leading towards, a complete irrepairably damaged society. If it not stopped now, for minimal damages, it can't be never and ever.
India is in real danger.
Some one pls. spread about the laws and governance of the indian society leading to, everywhere on the net.........
Indian Men Dying fastly, Reason follows:
I am trying to convey in simple, what really happenning in India.
I was a fun guy till 25, being university topper, but from a lower middle class family.
My Dad being simple, illeterate but honest individual by nature. Mother simple housewife, happy going family.
Later, I married a girl from a lowered middle class family, a degree student, I thought would help me with my work
and I thought continuing fun life with one more member as a part & parcel of this family.
To my strange experience, now I started learning what is India?
As long as everything went right before marriage, I was just next to Mr. Peter or Ms. Neha, having thoughts in the same
pattern of their life. Fun, Joke, and happiness now started seem to be only for a few families. My wife unwilling to
stay with my family and always tried in arrogancy to meet her parents demands. I surprised, why this women is like this.
To my surprise I ended up in JAIL with my mother, father and one of my sister, reason being not meeting her parents demands
of staying near by their home. IPC sec 498a is NON-BAILABLE WARRANT AND NO BAIL FOR THE FAMILY, REGARDLESS OF PYHSICAL VIOLENCE
EXISTS OR NOT. MY GOD, WHAT HAPPEN TO MY COUNTRY.?
After being in Jail for few days, I started my own research in the newspapers, organizations, MEN cells and most of
the neighboour hood higher-middle class families.
To my further surprise, I came to know the reality in India, MEN ARE REAL FOOLISH. MOST % OF MEN IN INDIA ARE
SILENTLY SUFFERING, SOME OF THEM WITHOUT BEING KNOWN TO THEM AS SUFFERING. IT IS ONLY BY THEIR PYSICAL CONDITIONS(DIESEASED)
, BY ANALYSIS. MOST MEN IN MY NEIGHBOUR HOOD KNOWS ABOUT THIS SECTION 498A AND WOMEN GROUPS. For IPC 498a, it is sufficient
enough to JAIL husband indefinitely, If wife informs police of mental harrassment.
They told us, this is the way society lives in India. I heard from others that, as my family came up financially, socially
suddenly through my generation, I wouldn't know it.
For the last 3.5 years, my family and myself being around courts. I am tired meeting politicians, paying lawyers and
police.
I lost my education. I lost my wisdom.
Now I am not able to think or understand what is the real pattern of a human society. What my country has given me
knowledge and means to live with.
JUST TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE COURT ABOUT MY FAMILY INNOCENCY, IT WOULD COST SEVERAL YEARS OF MY WHOLE FAMILY TIME, INCLUDING ME.
GREAT COUNTRY!
These are all other realities:
ANY SINCERE AND HONEST SHOUTS IN AN EDUCATED VOICE AGAINST EVIL, ONE CAN GET KILLED OR BEATEN IN A VERY FEW HOURS IN INDIA,
BY HOOLIGANS OF A SMALL POLITICIAN ITSELF. THEN THINK OF WHAT A POWER A PARLIAMENTARIAN HAS GOT.
BRAIN AND WISDOM IS THE CAUSE OF SUFFERING IN INDIA.
DEVELOPMENT OF MIND AND SOCIAL POWER OF THINKING IS LOWER.
YOUNGSTERS ARE INTELLIGENT IN MY COUNTRY ON THEIR SUBJECTS BUT NOT ON THE SOCIAL ENGINEERING LIFE.
Swarup:
The points you make seem to be the disguise for personal attacks. You seem to hang around the first ten words and promptly jump to write a response, without even making an attempt to understand what I wrote.
Oh, and I see your feeble attempt at sarcasm. I stick to my guns, and still would maintain that myths and legends in the form that you employ them do not add to any credibility.
And to get the equation right. My sense of equality is not threatened by my feminism. I have questioned monoliths in beliefs long before there was a problem in my family. I am open enough to believe that both men and women are victims of patriarchy, and I have worked with both men and women in India. In fact, I even directed a friend of mine to seek you guys out (I don't know if she did) because her brother was in a similar situation.
But your unbridled rage, and personal attacks seem to indicate that you react, and not really focus on what should be said. You don't answer my questions, you merely shout. You want me to REACT. You want to PROVOKE me. And you take silence for defeat.
You obviously do not believe in dialogue. Well, end of story. I strongly disagree with you, but do not have the time or endless patience to stand your drivel.
Bharati:
Scientifically speaking children who refuse mother's milk are many. And it's almost like insulting children who were born and abandoned, or who were orphaned.
I respect the relationship we have with our mothers (I for one am close to both my mother and my mother-in-law), but concepts like if you have drunk your mother's milk have a place in theatre/ Dharmendra's dialogue in movies, but do not make much of a point otherwise.
to understand you your women activitist and friends are there my dear !!!!
This not a neha , there are a lot of nehas are there who had been provked by feminist . We had given enough time 17 years to them , listen to them for 17 years , done wahtever they demand from us , to understand that this 498A is a blander , but they have not learnt from thier mistake and not ready to accept thier mistake .
So , you need to understand the legal terrirosm , need your some close friend or relative should get a 498A .. very nice !!!
And for your kind information , if today in india this legal terrorism , i will make responible the girls like you and your associate .
You go and stop it as per your method , the day you will do that i will be the first person to congratulate you .
And you are not the first person , tody Indra jai Singh hiding the media , Bindr karta are hiding the media .. just wait and watch .. there will be very great fun how Indian men beg in the Delhi national Highway .
So dont worry Neha , if you really want a equal right to all , criminal should be punishable as per crime ... my congratualtion will be there .. but if you continue the milltant feminism , sorry go and do all those terrorist activity .
I have not got the answer still , what punishment is there when a dishonest daughter in law ( Modern Suparnakhas ) , when they abuse our mother or sister ??
OKKKKKKK .. just do it on the field , do the real women well fare , come to my village i will show waht indian women actually need , they need a cloth to save their body , they need a job to bring thier child , but how a girl like neha will understand that ??
They have been brain wash by some Modern Suparnakhs that you should grab the men money and property instead of doing the hard work and earn for your self .
At last whatever you say nothing new , we have heard lacks of times and by all this a lot of damage had been done to our mother , sister and daughter .
Still you want to say ...... sorry no need to mentioned !!!!!!
Swarup:
Please scroll up to read my response to your question
You say:
I have not got the answer , what punishment you recomended when a
dishonest daughter-in law abuse our mother and sister ???
My response:
My punishment to men and women is the same. If a man abuses his wife's mother and her sister, and a woman abuses her mother-in-law/ sister-in-law - they have in essence committed similar crimes. The punishment therefore is pretty much the same.
Despite getting an answer, you don't seem to be happy till there is a fight.
Incidentally, I work in the fields of Health, Education, Livelihoods and Infrastructure, and Gender is a cross cutting issue for me. (I said Gender, not women!)
Really, you need to learn to read things with an open and cool mind, and not pounce on the first comment that walks in.
"I respect the relationship we have with our mothers (I for one am close to both my mother and my mother-in-law), but concepts like if you have drunk your mother's milk have a place in theatre/ Dharmendra's dialogue in movies, but do not make much of a point otherwise. "
- With this coment you are making in internate .. the same type of coment i have for a another Neha in front of whole nation in SAB TV after marriage of first year , in Surti Irani Show - " I got the best husband and in laws . I am proud of my in laws , that they provided me all the comfort and freedom ."" Want to see the same???
We had a lot of evidence like that my dear neha ...
But today she want to send her husabnd and thier family members behind the bar ... becuase she involved with another relationship , and want divorce with heavy money , but her husabnd say no. Because after two years of marriage she understand that for her , own parents are more important than .... sorry . Now she alleged them that at time of marriage itslef her mother in law , husabnd used to beat her for money !!!! This great 498A ---- OKKKK my dear neha !!!! Learn to accept the reality , let be honest and fight for honest people .
I hope and pray to god your relationship should continue and never ever a Ravan or Suparnakhs should try to spoil that .. but in reality it happens ... Becuase the realy suparnakhs shows her actual face when she dont get her illogical demand .
Criminal does not have a sex .
Once again , we say No to femisim , we want gender equality , we say no to domestic violence Bill , we want domestic harmoney bill .
Nothing there to accept or refuse , whatever you belive can do , no force are there .
regards
swarup
Guys,
Lets understand that we are all having problems with impersonal medium of written down communication. We may all agree to everything whats being said by all the parties, if we were discussing these in person.
Thats what i think, so lets not vitiate the situation and without any use too. Cool down, lets use our rage at places where it beings about change and results, ok.
Enough of silly nothings :). Lets get to work, please
Deep
Neha yes your are not a idoit .
Do you know 498A is not applicable for a dishonest daughter in law ??
I asked waht punishment ?? What IPC is there ??
as per 498A , DV act , the moment you ask to a daughter in law , why she is doing this , all will be behind the bar , in the name of verbal abuse and mental harrasement , then how you will punish them ??
Very intelegent like Indiara jai sing , say "if men face verbal abuse for that LAW is there , let them fight at court , but if a women face verbal abuse need special law !!!( in recent TV show ) ."
I will be awating for the 498B for a dishonest daughter in law .
Dear Neha,
Well, We get your point, I am sure you will get our point too.
I appreciate you telling some of us how to present ourselves and trust me, and let me assure you we won't let you down on it.
But its not fair when We are being told have a heart, that of a Lion. And at the same time when we Roar like a Lion we are also being told How to Roar, plus again we are reminded that "Hey you are a Lion and You need to have a heart of a Lion. so don't Roar and if You do these are the rules to Roar."
In other words we are told that "You may be victims but you do not have a choice even to express it and if you do you can't do it outside a particular framework or in a particular manner." "Well if you do so then you do not have us with you because are we are offended."
But why you offended? again we are talking in general. Now, is this a kind of a conditional approach. We were using symbolism to clearly identify that sita is still a loser who is unprotected. where as surpanakha is still encashing on this opportunity. As a real sita has the purest of heart and would not ever use it to hurt anybody. Further it is this law which is vicitmising the innocents and the facilitating the victimisers.
If I have to support you. I will see how correct you are and would unconditionally support you if you are right. That is what we want.
Infact, honestly, we all have welcomed Your contributions towards dealing 498A.
At the same time, we would also expect intellectuals to be high on EQ too and accept the fact that our roar is out of a heartfelt PAIN where we have unnecessary lost a lot of peace and focus of life because of an ego of a stupid girl in our life. who had a law to encourage and tempt her to get a saddist pleasure from troubling innocent elders.
We would be least prepared to take an unbalanced utopian feminist talk silently, who try to give a picture that we are lying, and would not take the female injustice data as a justification to our predicament. Because we too oppose disharmony of any kind to anyone irrespective of gender.
Also check the comment section in my mumbai meeting article, as to how a "loud mouth" and a suspicious individual was dealt with. and you will realise that what our intentions are.
With High Regards, Keep writing,
Jinesh Zaveri.
Jinesh:
I respect and understand the pain that causes people to react in the manner they do. My comments were on your strategy, not to judge your pain.
Neha,
I am happy with your gesture.
But tell me Section 498A will celebrate its 22nd Birthday this December. And the misuse is equally old. We tried your approach are still trying but we have realised its not enough. and what difference it has made? the answer is no difference not even of an inch here or there. the law is as it was then with no ammendments.
So, We have realised to speak in a Language that these people would understand. coz now "We cannot afford, not to be understood."
22 Years have seen 2 generations of Newly wed being victimised by this falsly tempting laws. and the 3rd Generation is catching up at a real fast pace.
And hence we have to save ourselves, as we, atleast have that freedom to express.
And if they call this as a WAR, then well everything was fair in our LOVE and hence everything then will be fair in this WAR from our end too.
But not to forget We Have A HEART of A LION. And so is our ROAR.
No more mute Lions. Else the now generation of kids will blame us. and we do not want them to suffer like us.
Kind Regards,
Jinesh Zaveri.
THIS AGENDA SHOULD BE FORWARDED TO
MEDIA AND SOCIAL ORGANISATIONS TO UNDERSTAND REAL ISSUES.
This is Feminism or Legal Terrorism??
http://www.indiatalking.com/blog/swarup/1338/
Recently the writer of Telegraph of Kolkata had published a senless , lack of knowledge and tried to fool the People from the actual truth . The coment as under :-
“ The protests often sound rather silly. Messages such as "Say no to feminism and to the domestic violence bill," posted on the web by organizations such as the Pariwarik Suraksha Sanstha and Forum of Battered Husbands, seem more like the ravings of bullies exposed than reasoned objections. “
Do you know what is Feminism ?? We have seen and observed a lot of Feminist activity in India and the meanning of the Feminism in India as under :-
Feminism means Whole Sale Free Lincence of Adultrity Relationship.
Feminism means Whole Sale Free Lincence to grab the Husband Money by Legal Terrorism .
Feminism Means Whole Sale Free Lincence for Killing the Child .
Feminisam Means Whole Sale Free Lincence for refuse to give the Child Mother Milk .
Feminism menas forcing a Child to Grow under Single parenting System .
Feminisam means Elder abuse – sending age old , sick Parents out of house .
Feminism means sending Child and Pregent Sister to the jail without any Investigation .
Feminism means to make the Institution of Marriage to a legal Postitution ( Live in relationshp )
Feminism means to hide the actual truth . … like that a lot more are there!!
Yes so we asked to our sister , mother and daughter to say “ No to Feminism “ , we want to say “ Gender Equality “.
Yes we appele to all IIT,IIM ,IT and honest Industry People to Say “ No to Domestic Violence Bill “ , We want “ Domestic Harmoney Bill “ to stop the legal Terrorism . Because today it seems our Government and LAW maker had allready Sold them self in the Hand of Modern Suparnaks and Modern Ravans .
There is no Place of Modern Sita , Modern Ram , Modern Laxman !!
Now the writer and all other who says this is Silly , let them say what they want !!
In the whole wolrd only one Country that is India where , all the whole sale free lincence are available and that is not a crime and the criminal get away , as there is no punishment for the above crime . India is the only country where 498A , is there by which age old parents , pregent sister go to jail without any investigation.
If any LAW maker does not have the sufficient knowledge , then why they make such a stupid LAW ??
http://www.indiatalking.com/blog/swarup/1326/
Indian Parents and Pregent Sister are in Jail !!!
But our LAW Makers don’t learn from the Mistake , instead of correcting the Mistake , they want another Blood Cancer , “ Domestic Violence Act “ , which is so badly Drafted that the Indian Women Life will be miserable and one more step to :-
Cheating and Fooling the Indian Women for Vote Bank !!
Check this :-
http://www.indiatalking.com/blog/swarup/1333/
So we all a group of SIF Volunteers form of IIT ,IIM ,IT and Honest Industry People say :
“ No to Feminism “ , we want to say “Gender Equality “.
“ No to Domestic Violence Bill “ , we want “ Domestic Harmoney Bill “ to stop the legal Terrorism .
Let all the nation to Decided , what they Want , Volence or harmoney ??
Let Save Indian Family , Let save the Institution of Marrige for a Better tomorrow for our Child .
Regards
Swarup Sarkar
Disclimer :This is totally writer personnel Views only. You may have different opinion. The name and place changed to protect the Persons Identity.
Sumanth:
Please find my response
1) We are not really fighting with you. We are communicating with you. There nothing personal about it.
Unfortunately, a blog is a private space accessed by the public. In that sense it ceases to be a place where you can think aloud after a point. People might read these comments. How do you they are going to react to some of the statements made here? You see, personal is political. You say you want to fight the battle the way feminists have fought it - and that's how feminists have perceived the world - personal is political. So please be prepared to have a political statement made out of each of your comments.
For instance Sumanth - (and take this in good faith), the stress on morality, might attract an anti-homosexual group. Are you ready for such a partner? Would you be comfortable with unsolicited bedfollows who may turn out to be religious fanatics?
2) We are not angry at all. You can ask those people who have met us.
I would be surprised if you weren't angry. Anyone who has been cheated has the god-given right to be angry. However, no battle or courtdrama in the world has been won with anger. It has been won with strategy, tact and rationale.
3) My observation says, you are mixing your personal opinions, your personal feminism and global feminism.
We have an issue with global feminism, not with your personal feminism or your personal opinions. We want to send a clear message to global reductionistic feminist movement and not to you.
My personal opinion is that you are reducing feminism to the groups that deal only with violence. I used to work with young adolescent girls who felt that they had to imitate women in a Femina magazine and that otherwise they wouldn't be beautiful. I worked with young kids who had to be taught what sexual abuse was (and I worked both with young boys and girls - and we used to reiterate the fact that BOTH men and women could be abusers.) In that sense, some of my sensibility and sensitivity came from feminist thought.
If your battle is against global feminism - then you have to state it. So far, apart from this comment - it has seemed like a tirade against any kind of feminism.
4) You said you believe law should be equal for all. But thats what we are also saying. But how do you intend to achieve that ? Will other feminists and patriarchy agree ?
Most feminist stains do not believe in concept of equality at all. We target issues related to global feminism and just because we see one reformed feminist, why should we change our articles ?
If CHS comes to us and says please close down the shop, we will not do that. If Warren Farrell comes and tells us to do so, we will tell him to get lost.
I personally respond to ideas and not people. So far, the responses I have mostly got (especially from Swarup) have been to the tune of personal attacks, not on the basis of ideology. In fact, I seriously doubt if the responses were to my comments, as opposed to being reactions to a person.
5) I personally carried out a lot of investigation on feminist hypocrisy.
Just the way you can not tolerate extremism, I can not tolerate half-truths.
Fair enough. We have a right to our beliefs.
6) I feel people who remain politically correct(because it is fashionable) without investigating are the ones who cause maximum damage to society.
It is the politically correct who cheered for witch burning. All those bloggers who are using Maa, Behen Languages are real MCPs who are disguising themselves as Liberals.
My personal opinion is that people who align themselves to a movement because it is politically correct disappear when it is time to defend the ideology.
7) You are talking about lose of opportunity for women in history. But, that can also mean lesser hardships and lesser pain for women. Imagine, those young sailers who went to Java, Bali or Tahiti and many who used to get killed.
Even today, men pull cycle rickshaws, go for fishing, fight wars/insurgencies and they never crib about it. They do this all for feeding a family. Imagine, the same men being put in a false 498a case.
I guess we see history from different angles. What I see as opportunity, you might see as hardship. What you might see as housework, I might see as forced routine. To me opportunity is about being given a choice. Neither men nor women were given adequate choice. They were forced into their respective roles.
However, in the end the ability to discover was seen to be a prerogative of men - and women were denied a lot in the process.
8) I believe, till the time men/boys are allowed by society to express themselves, their emotions, cry themselves out, freed from protecting and providing for women, the situation of women in society will not improve.
You would never find me countering that. Patriarchy has made a victim out of each one of us. Some of us are more conscious of our status as a victim.
9) We are not conservatives. We do not want to go back to stone age. Do you know why ? We were all liberal feminists just a few years back and deserted it when it back-stabbed us.
But Sumanth, take a look at what it appears to be! Nobody will be able to glance inside your head or heart to ascertain what you imply. People take things at face value. This is the first time I see an aspect of your movement that addresses culture as being positive.
You see much as you guys talk about CHS's book 'Who Stole Feminism', I feel like writing about 'Who stole Ramayana', because our legends and myths are now pawns used by religious fanatics like VHP. And they use them in anger. As an analogy, the concept of Sita and Surpanakha is weak - because a) It adds a religious tint. While I myself am a religious person, having my ideas coloured with religion is not an ideal situation, because people could mis-read my intentions. b) Not everyone is familiar with the version of Ramayana that you borrow the analogy from c) You need to talk research, not myth.
10) We, men are feeling cheated.
Fair enough.
11) I know nice, intelligent and sensitive men who have not seen their children for 2 or 3 years because Judges are getting Gender Sensitive sadists.
There is nothing wrong in being gender sensitive. It is when people think of woman > man as a cardinal rule. Gender sensitivity is to be able to look beyond the biological sexes of a person and to be able to understand what a person has turned into. The Judges are merely using a band-aid approach, instead of looking into the merits of a case. For all those of you who cannot reach out to your children - your pain and hurt must be immense.
12) In almost all cases, feminist NGOs who work with CAW cells of big cities coerce men to agree for huge settlements. They are simply threatened of 498a. We have thousand cases where we have seen legal terrorism first hand.
I have seen cases of the other kind as well. One where the man is the abuser. (I have also seen cases where women are abusers) So isn't this about addressing the natural bias of a legal provision for the vulnerable?
13) I agree that there are crimes against women. But, when feminism vents it out on innocent, sensitive, urban men and victimises them, do you feel these men will keep quite ?
By all means - be heard!! Never keep silent. Like Martin Luther King said In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends. But, be careful of what you say, and how you say it.
14) Please recognise that most feminist NGOs in India just do not care about women or society. They want funds and attention. Thats why the issues are where they are.
Organisations are a reflection of the society we live in.
15) Imagine, all crimes against women vanish overnight. Then all these feminists will be jobless, causeless. So, they are not really sincere towards solving the issues.
Fair enough. Like they say about social workers - Are we parasites of disaster?
16) We know how to stop female foeticide in just 2 years. We have found, its the feminists who are actually diverting attention away from the real solution to this problem. (We will hijack this issue from feminist NGOs very soon).
I don't think the answers are that linear or that simple. But I believe in local solutions. Salem in Tamil Nadu has a different reason for female infancticide than Amritsar in Punjab.
Your relative can contact us for legal advice. But, most men have the habit of not asking directions and in the process getting lost. We have seen too many men coming to us when it is too late. Its important to approach us in a non judgemental manner.
My relative is at a point where he is hopefully close to closing the chapter. I have directed him to you guys, and I leave it to him to contact you.
Please understand that we carry this mission of giving some help to other victims, because someone helped us when we were in serious trouble. When we help others, our problems get transformed.
My comments were not to belittle your pain or effort, but to questions the statements that seem to have been made in anger, but can have a great impact on the way people perceive you.
Please suggest us, how men will be able to free themselves from Patriarchy. Will feminists or most urban Indian women even like it ?
We're all victims of patriarchy. I consider myself an urban Indian woman, and think I pray for the day that men realize it's alright to be weak. That it is okay to cry. That they are not responsible for my safety. That they don't have to be nice to me!
I pray for the day when I can assert feminity as the quality of a strong, independent person - not as a quality of a dependent and weak-willed person.
Please remember the men who are free from patriarchy will crib, complain, nag and cry like women. Believe me, thats very much possible. Are women ready for that ? Imagine, a man leaves his job at 35 and decides to become an house husband and a writer.
Sumanth, patriarchy puts values on our emotions. Women crib, nag and complain because we are taught by a patriarchal superstructure that it is the only way to get what we want. Cribbing and nagging is essentially behaviour encouraged by patriarchy. Much like violence is.
In a non-patriarchal world - I see more place for dialogue.
Indian Feminists (not you) did lie about 498a misuse. They did distort the statistics. They did break furniture in Delhi High Court opposing the judgement of Justice J.D.Kapoor. They criticised Malimath Committee report quite shamelessly when he recommended to make 498a bailable and compoundable. They misused their positions, their influence to carry out their agendas.
They need to be exposed and punished for their arrogance, insensitivity and unethical behaviour.
My sincere advice - Take names, and be specific. Grouping together something like Indian Feminism doesn't help. Focus on specific actions of specific organisations. (My two paisa)
We want unconditional apology by all leading feminists and their NGOs to all innocent elders who have been imprisoned in false 498a cases. We also want DV bill to cover violence against elders, children and also men. Men need an avenue to file complaints of harassment by women.
I think an apology is due from the Indian Judiciary System than feminists and NGOs. (But THAT is my personal opinion.) DV bill should cover ALL kinds of voilence in the domestic domain, regardless of who the perpetrator is.
Do you know in US, 1000 children are killed by their parents every year ? We Indians are not raising a hue and cry about mass murder of children in US. Then why the hell, western media rants about 6250 dowry deaths in India. In reality more men are driven to suicide by women in first 7 years of marriage than otherway round.
I see the relationship between countries as essentially patriarchal as well. A system where the lesser cannot point out flaws in the system of the greater.
The suicide statistics say, 68,000 men and 39,000 women committed suicide last year. Women drive about 15,000 men to suicide every year.
Suicide statistics are dicey figures. I wouldn't compare them. The value of EACH life (be it male or female) is valuable and shouldn't have to become part of an equation.
Finally, I do not want you to get defeated, but I am sure you will not win against us either. Disagreements are always quite healthy.
I offered my opinion. Period. If hearing from a person about their opinion is going to encourage personal attacks and refusal to listen, that is the decision you have to take.
My guru Swarup says, 498a Misuse is same as POTA misuse. An useless organisation called AmNasty International supports and argues for retaining existing 498a, but opposes POTA. Why ??
You are asking the wrong person. I do not work with or for Amnesty. :)
Why Liberals (who are jumping around for 3500 bar girls) are not openning their mouth for some 50,000 innocent people (including women) suffering under false 498a ?
Every movement has its own virtue. There is a need to protect the bar dancers as well. But that shouldn't take away from work done for women suffering under some other law.
Post Scriptum -
It is obvious that you guys are extremely convinced that you are right, and that there is no space for discussion. I wish to end this here, because very obviously the seeds of disagreement are sown too deep to even vaguely encourage listening.
I am well aware that this will be taken as defeat. Because silence is open to too many inferences. This, is neither to signal defeat nor agreement. This is an end to a pointless debate. But my stand remains - that I cannot take your personal attacks.
The coment of Neha clearly shows that how a feminist lie , do not want to accept the gender equality . They dont brother when a man sucide , they dont brother when a mother and sister suffer , they have enough time and energy to spoil the society , they have enough time and energy to justyfy the activity of Modern Suparnakhs and Modern Ravans .
The coment of neha proved that the feminist does not want gender quality , they want whole sale free lincence as Swarup says .
There is nothing worng with neha , the way feninist teaches her , she learned .
The coment once agin proved how today our child lack a good education .
Good save to neha and such type of girls in our society .
yes , swarup rightly says , in india Fenisim means leagel terrirosm .
Today no place in India the idology of Modern Sita , Modern Ram , Modern Laxman ... so let go as per idology of Modern Suparnakhs and Modern ravans .
regards
smita
By supporting the activity of Modern Suparnakhas , neha had insulted 600 milion of indian women .
It clearly shows the narrow mind of neha .
Neha , come to India and open the window from your flat , you will find in bangalore husbands are cokking , husabnds are giving the food to child , husbands are taking live from office to entertain thier in laws .
Indian honest women belive in harmoney , not the violence . Any self respecting indian women will never ever try to grab husabdn money for her own enjoyment .
I am also a women visited all over the country and seen waht a honest women want !!! You are licky that you born in India , as a result you got a good husband , mother in law , but in return what you give them is more important . They dont want any money or property from you , they want litle care , litle sweet word .. which your great feminist logic dont understand .
Yes i will say " No to so called fenisim "
regards
Mrs. Vijya Deshpandey
I dont know this is the right froum to write my coment , becuase my own husband is a active member of this group .
But one thing i would like to tell the Neha type of girl , today i have been seperated from my husband , becuase i had a sister as same as like Neha , as per her advice i tried to use the 498A , and at last the waht i got ??
I got seperated from my husband , and my sister are enjoying and living a happy married life with her husband .
I know i can not get back my husband , i lost her my dignity in his heart , but the mistake i have done for a small dispute i went to a girl like neha and she advised to abort my child and to tell lie to my husband .
One day when he came to know ... no need to say .
Then i approch to one woemn orginasation , who adviced me to file 498A , but he able to get the quashed the same .
I know i have done the mistake by respecting the word of a Girl and advice like Neha .
Blog owner .. good blog to open the eyes of a lot of people .
regards
Gouri
Why do I have the sneaky suspicion that all three women (Smita, Mrs Deshpandy and Gouri) are the same people. (Chuckle!)
The semantics, semiotics, sentence structure, words used, imagery (even the numerous spelling mistakes) are curiously similar!!
It's sad that someone here has to fabricate identities to make a point.
Hello Brothers,
I'm one more in chain of all those who are and had
been harassed by these morden bitches....
Currently, running under a case of 498-A with a FIR of
9 IPCs impossed against me by the bitch whome I
happened to loved the most and had given the best
comfort. My bitch is living in Pune and working for
Alcatel India and is called as Poonam Narang. Anyone,
knowing her can pass this message that life is so
beautiful without her.
If I'm through with this case, I would like to provide
my whole hearted services to all the people looking
for some help.
I would like to thank the most to Swarup for his time
and help he extended to me.....Swarup, I'm gonna be
with you for any support on this Noble cause.
Best Regards//
Raj Kaushal
Sumanth,
I attempted at excusing the anger that I saw here. As a person I don't consider myself vulnerable to behaving in "top-off-the-head" passion. As for Art of Living, I did my thesis on it, so I think there are better ways to controlling temper or leading a peaceful life. I never said anger was wanted. I said it was understandable. Semantically and theoretically they are two different realms of management.
The fundamental difference is that we disagree on methods, and perhaps even on ultimate goals.
I had an opinion to offer. In return I get sarcasm. The only argument that I got in return was that I was too young. The minute the origin of the idea becomes more important the idea itself, it does become personal.
I really wish to end this here. Because if feedback is not required or is completely un-solicited, then it won't be given.
I wish Neha should not end dialogue.
A purposeful serious dialogue has just started.
I think Gouri is telling the truth that her life was ruined because of wrong advice and misuse of section 498A.
My daughter-in- law met the same fate because of misusing women's rights given by Indian legislature and misusing section 498A of the Indian Penal Code, as she being herself a practicing Lawyer.Her father is also Law attorney practicing in Bombay.
They experimented misuse of these laws on themselves for blackmail and extortion of Rs. one Crore with the conivance of Police and other law enforcing machinery.
However in wiew of available documentry proof, she has admitted having lodged false complaint and signed a settlement document accordingly
Ms Deshpande is also telling the truth and natural that In- laws
want little care and little sweet words and happiness for children.
I think Ms Neha can work towards estabilishment of a feminist group which is interested in dialogue and fair play as suggested by Sumanth. She has the capabilities and cliber.This can lead to great results.
After all Men and Women by and large have lived in harmony for thousands of years. Present devide has been created by Politicians for vote bank since last 22 years.
I think the dialogue and agreement between Ms Neha and Mr Sumanth will greatly help in preparing effective AGENDA for understanding the real issues.
Extremism breeds Terrorism
This is what has happened.
Feminists have addopted extremism with politician's support, which has resulted into Legal Terrorism.
Mr Sumanth should control extremism displayed by some bloggers in the dialogue.
There is no place for Extremism or Terrorism in human relations.
This will only bring destruction.
Kind Regards
I feel that though Neha has been very polite in arguments but actually has tended to skim or hide or evade issues
Sumanth mentions that husbands suicide rate increases after marriage . It is a common knowledge amongst us doctors that mental stress in marriage is far more on the man then on the women. The number is probably around 15-25 thousand where in suicide has happened due to emotional strain and mental strain placed by the wives.It is sad that they also do not leave suicde notes becuase the feeling is that they may get smooth language but no real help.
bharati raised the issue of Gender equality is gender equality . I agree those points raise the question mark on whether whether feminists are for gender quality or not
these were obviously
Adultery needs two guilty persons not just a man to be guilty
Consensual sex is not rape even if promise of marriage is made.Otherwise man can also claim rape on the similar grounds.
As doctors we can only affirm that fathers are not bad for children and need to be given substantial time. I haven't seen any harm come to the child when it raised by widowers or in rare cases separated husbands.
We can see the pain and We can also see that this pain cannot be erased by mere smooth words but by actual reaffirmation that what happened was wrong .It is an acknowledgement honest feminists need to do and with proper heart. We have talked about women.It is time to accept that what happened to men is wrong and not bury our heads in sand saying it is less or it can be taken care of etc.
Feminists have also done quite a lot of good things. But in husband wife matters they seem to have taken an extreme stance against husbands. And they have taken a strong gender inqual position in many laws.
We do not know too much details of said section so will not comment except that when a suicide happens to a wife that husband is usually sent to jail innocent or not
The real thing here is "Misuse of 498A" .With emphasis on “Misuse”. And the same misuse has been observed by all the judges of High Courts and Supreme Court. Never ever Supreme Court declared an IPC as proponent of “Legal Terrorism” as it has said about 498A. Until and unless the law is modified and some new clause are added like punishment for filing false cases, and making it bailable and compoundable so that innocent victims don’t have to languish in jail or have to remain chained for the slow proceedings of the court. The law is such that
it becomes v easy for people to misuse it. No one is complaining if its used properly. But even after 20 years of its coming into action and everyday reports of its misuse coming from all corners of India, its high time the law has to be modified with all the loopholes plugged.
Nice to see the coment from the doctors .
Here i would like to put , the best option is to make the law as per Crime , let it be murder , rape , domestic violence .
Let both the men and women mke equally responsible .
Now the question will come ??
How it is possible ??
If we give the rape law in the hand of Men , they will misuse heavly !!!!
Yes .. then the solution will be how to stop this misuse ???
Till the time we dont think on that line , the actual criminal will get away and innocent people go to jail .
Now as per me to stop the misuse , as we are in Modern and techonology , we must have to use the techonology to stop the crime .
We have to give double punishment by defult , to those who try to misguide the system .
Once we start thinking in that line , we will get the answer , as i belive the Talent like Indra Jai Sing , is not less . If they want they can do miracale .. but the thing is they are intentionally doing the worng thing , besically they dont want a women liberisation , they want that a women should be treated as a comodity in the society .
Making such law like DV , 498A , maintance , allomoney .. is nothing but legal terrorism .
And history wittness , in terrorist activity only innocent people got killed . Terrorist can not achieve their target .
The same thing today happening in India in the name of women well fare , in the name of women empowerment .
As a result , the fight between MEN VS WOMEN increses , crime against increses , and that will increse .
We need all law on the basis of Crime , who ever does that crime , will be punishable .
It is not that you will put all the 600 million men in one bag and term them as rapist , wife beater , and all 600 million women in one bag and term them as sati savatri , abala nari .
Now it is upto those feminist to decide waht they want .
Are they really want women liberasation or Not ??
May be i am wrong , let the whole world to decide , time will give us the answer .
The more gender bised law and legal terrorism will be done , the more and more innocent people will get kill and dishonest people will be in the society .
regards
swarup
Un-Answered Questions and some points I have in mind :-
1. Damages Amount : On what basis do those wives claims 5,10,15 sometimes 20 lakhs in damages ? (I recently heard of a case in Mumbai where the wife was awarded 50 lakhs as compensation for cruelty.) On what paradigm/basis is this value calculated ? Should there not be some sensible logic to calculating this value ? A lady who does false allegations can easily claim 10 lakhs in damages without raising any eyebrows. This does not appeal to the mind in the very least. Other important things like, income tax for instance, is calculated according to some paradigm : the tax is calculated as per a defined process.(I feel, this value should be directly proportional to the acts of cruelty actually proven in the court of law, by the wife’s lawyer)
2. Custody only if they can provide proof : In case of complaints of cruelty and harassment / dowry, if the wife cannot provide any immediate proof (while filing the FIR) and none of her relatives/parents can immediately accept responsibility of providing the proof (to be given at a later date), the husband and his parents should not be arrested. It should be mandatory on the part of wife’s parents to provide an affidavit solemnly stating that the claims of cruelty that they make in FIR are true and they can provide hard-core evidence to that effect. Affidavit should bear sign of lawyer who has analyzed the evidence and who should declare that the evidence indeed is valid and warrants arrest of the guilty party. Evidence should consist of :
a. Documentary evidence AND/OR
b. Witnesses who are ready to face cross examination (who claim to have witnessed incidences of cruelty/harassment)
If no such affidavit can be provided, the husband, must be asked to provide weekly attendance to the police station to prove his availability. He should be regarded as “doubted criminal : a possible criminal but not a confirmed criminal” If he cannot be present, somebody on his behalf should take responsibility. If he fails to provide attendance, only then police should take him into custody. Same logic applies to his relatives/ parents who are mentioned in the FIR.
3. Punish if guilt is proven : Arrest should be done only when clear cut evidence is given in court and it is proved beyond doubt that the husband is guilty of cruelty (for which upto 2 years imprisonment and fine should be awarded as per provisions of 498A. Same logic should apply to any other relative / parents of the husband). In case of proven allegations, the husband not only should get jail but must be kept on record as “harasser and evil-doer” and for him re-marriage for the next 5 years should be considered as a cognizable offence. Also the amount of money to be paid as compensation should be equivalent to the proved evidence – not too less or too more, and according to his assets (according to some mature logic).
4. Punishment for not providing proof : If wife cannot prove her allegations the case should be dismissed and wife should be made to pay damages to husband. Amount of damages should be proportional to the amount of allegations (which she could not prove) @ 50,000/- per allegation for lower middle class girl.(80,000/- for middle class and 1,20,000/- for higher middle class ). More the allegations, more the amount in damages. If she cannot provide the damages amount, jail should be inevitable.
5. Punishment if allegations are proved wrong : If the husband, in turn proves beyond doubt that wife has made false allegations wife should be awarded imprisonment (upto 2 years) and fine. She should be branded as “cheat and liar” and re-marriage for the next 5 years should be a cognizable criminal offence for her.Her parents too should be jailed for same period for having being accessory to their daughter’s crime.
6. Sensible time frame for lodging complaint : Why is it that she can lodge a complaint 3-4 months or even years after the actual act of cruelty takes place ? I feel the complaint should be considered as null and void if it is made after 4 weeks of the incident. If the cruelty is so serious that she wishes to go to police, why cant it be done in less than a month : why do they need to wait for 1 year and then lodge a complaint ? (were they eating chiwada in that 1 year ?)
7. Punish for taking back the case : If the wife suddenly wants to withdraw the case, she should be governed as per point 4 above.It should be assumed that her complain was false. She may however, provide evidence and still take back her case (she wishes to forgive her husband). In which case she will not be made to pay damages.
8. Mental Harassment : Does affect the body : For allegations of mental harassment, definitely there would be some physical signs : like loss of weight, homogram : why do they never check this before arresting the husband’s parents ? the police should insist on some other persons to come to police station and offers signed documents declaring that they have seen her facing the cruelty and they are ready to offer themselves as witnesses at a cross examination at any time (as deemed fit by the court). Just as a loan is sanctioned by a bank only when sufficient security is promised and provided, similarly, the police should arrest husband , and his parents only when the wife’s relatives are ready to to stand a cross exam and can give an affidavit that they can provide evidence in the court of law , as and when required. Police should first take their signatures and then only proceed with arrest. If later, those people fail to provide sufficient evidence (as they claimed earlier), they should be jailed.
9. Warn-first (constructive approach) : There should be a WARN-FIRST system : when a lady does such a complaint, and she does not show any obvious signs of harassment/torture/ or in case she was never hospitalised, the husband with in-laws should be called to PS and given a solid warning. Also, their names, address should be kept on record and he must be asked to provide attendance for next 2-3 weeks (once a week) This way he will feel some minimum pressure by seeing those police officers every week, and also will get a chance to improve. If he defaults for the second time, the wife and her people are free to take the legal course. After the first warning, counseling should also be provided to go to the root of the problem and try and solve it, rather that just put the husband and his parents behind bars. As you can see, the whole focus should be constructive and curative : nipping the problem in the bud and not killing the problem (along innocent people along with it) with a bomb.
10. Conclusion : Law should consider both wife and husband as equals, and should deal with both equally.
11. Prevention better than cure : For all yet-to-happen marriages, following things should be made compulsory (this is an effort to reduce the ever-increasing divorce rate ) :
a. The couple (about to be married) should be allowed to meet for at least 3 months before marriage is finalised. A certificate signed by both to that effect stating that they have know each other for 3 months and find each other acceptable and most importantly, COMPATIBLE ( as now-a-days nobody wants to compromise on anything.) The bullying tactics of typically daughter’s parents should not be tolerated at all. It is often observed that hardly after the first or second meeting of the prospective groom and bride, that they start forcing the boy’s parents to fix up a date and commit to the marriage. Very often, a flaw in the girl’s/boy’s behavior is never brought to notice of the boy/girl or his/her family because of this hurriedness.
b. Marriage counseling well before marriage should be compulsory : it should be illegal to marry without a report from the counselor (stating the both bride and groom are compatible and have similar interests and mindsets). (The tendency should be “look for trouble and isolate + kill it rather than wait for disaster to happen”)
c. An affidavit should be signed by prospective wife that she has agreed to marriage on her free will ( and not forced by her parents) and she was and is never forced to pay up any dowry amount. What ever her parents have given or want to give is by way of blessings and gifts – not as dowry. This will be a constant protection to the husband (from false allegations).
d. A total and detailed medical checkup must be made mandatory for both husband and wife so that they are certified as fit or their deceases are exposed (if any) in the certificate.
e. In all above cases, examinations must be done from practicing professional who would be neutral to both parties.
f. Educational qualification and work place/salary of husband and wife should be subjected to verification (in many cases husbands exaggerate their salaries while wife’s parent keep the groom’s parents in the dark about some serious decease the wife has. Same thing about his/her qualification. )
g. A detailed form (almost like a document that may run into several pages) must be filled by both which will provide vital information to them. Both should fill up and exchange form that contains : (logic : people don’t easily speak up. But do not hesitate to write. Written communication can remove the limitations created by spoken communication.)
i. “likes and dis-likes’”
ii. addictions, if any (from supari to poison)
iii. Hobbies
iv. General Goals in life
v. Life style : how much u spend per month, what u drive (2 wheeler, car,plane, yatch, What kind of home u want, do u like to keep animals in home ?, food and drinks u like, food and drinks u hate to have , which place u would like to stay after marriage, in a flat or bungalow or row house ?, what does “luxury” mean to you ?)
vi. Career goals in life ( + education goals.)
vii. Expectations from spouse (V Imp !!. Large no. of divorces are due to mismatch of expectations !)
1. ‘Expectations from spouse ‘ To be divided into BASIC expectations (MUST be met), ADDITIONAL Expectations (at least 60% should be met) and GOOD-to-have things (added advantage, but not compulsory) in spouse.
viii. My dream partner : a small paragraph on what my dream partner should be like.
ix. Whether joint/nuclear family is preferred (to be filled up by wife)
x. What I can stand and cannot stand
xi. A day in my life : complete list of activities and events from morning till night on an average day. (this will help the other party know how the writer spends his/her day)
xii. Expectations related to kids. (Qty, education, dreams that u have about kids)
xiii. Expectations related to sex life. (style, type and frequency (times in a week), what u prefer, what not preferred)
xiv. Expectations related to social life
xv. A page on “The worst mistakes I made in life”
xvi. Hate list : things that I just cannot stand. (for eg : Drinking , non-veg, gutkha, etc)
h. A final document before marriage happens : Both should be made to sign a spouse character certificate that goes something like :
i. “I have interacted with him/her and find him/her peace loving and lovable and also compatible. I will not hesitate to spend my entire life with him/her.”
i. All above documents must be made compulsory. Entering into marriage without those document should be regarded as a severe offence and both should be liable to be jailed.
j. After marriage is solemnized, continuously for a period of 2 years, the husband and wife should sign documents and provide them to the legal authority that they are both happy and have no complaints. This should be done every 3 months for the entire duration.
All above checks and counter checks will make sure that marriage are not so casually and suddenly planned as it happens now a days. Also, it will be made sure that no party is hiding anything from the other party. Also, it will ensure that nothing is hidden from either party in terms of social , economic, physical, sexual and other parameters – no party will get “surprises” from the other party after marriage (or very few surprises, in worst cases). Neither the bride’s nor the groom’s parents should force the other party to “quickly fix up a suitable date” for the marriage. In short, marriage process should be lengthy and should ascertain Reasonably high compatibility between husband and wife before marriage itself.
12. Advantages of above system : a boy and girl will marry only if they are both satisfied that they are compatible. Also, later if deviations (behavioral) from the above declarations are found, the aggrieved party can photograph/record the deviations in behavior and produce that as proof in court and demand a divorce. For eg : The husband has declared before marriage (in the above form) that he does not drink and does not intend to drink later in his life. The wife, one fine day, finds him drinking out of his mind. She may take photos (with a calendar placed close to the husband ) to prove the date on which he was drinking and produce that as evidence in the court and also demand a divorce and some amount for damages. ) He will be held guilty of declaring false information before marriage and made to pay damages, even sent to jail in cases where cruelty is proven. Same logic husband can use against wife. If she says in the form that she is simple and good natured person and in reality she abuses and harasses the husband verbally every now and then. He can record all her shouting secretly and produce that in court and demand immediate relief from the marriage and torture. She will have to admit her guilt (as her abuse is on record) pay fine and might even be jailed.
13. Just after Marriage : Just after the marriage a detailed document should be prepared that enlists the gifts given by each party’s side to the couple. They should be clearly identified as “gifts” so that they are not later interpreted as dowry. This will make sure that false allegations are not done later for the same articles. The document must be submitted to a legal authority as proof of recp of gifts.
14. Legal education must be made compulsory from 11th std onwards for all streams. People are so ignorant about law that
a. They don’t know definition of terms like cruelty/intimidation and its legal implications. (I am sure no boy will want to get married if he reads about the Domestic Violence Act J or IPC 498A)
b. a person involved in a 498A case does not know meaning of terms like petitioner and respondent or things like “misc application” or “bail”.
c. What terms like “dowry” mean : what will happen of a person does not maintain documents of gifts recd during marriage and gets it signed from wife.
d. They don’t know what IPC / Cr. P.C stands for and what provisions are made in it.
By educating the masses about law, it will be ensured that people atleast know what they are doing and what are the legal implications of what they are doing.
15. By end of senior collage level, students should be well versed with IPC and Criminal PC and should be updated on the latest amendments specifically to laws relating to Divorce, Marriage, Cruelty, Dowry. The husband or wife should never be caught in a situation like “ I did not know what I was doing is cruelty and punishable offence”.
16. Females should also be well versed with concepts of cruelty and know that they can also do equal if not more cruelty to the husband by their nagging/emotional torture, verbal abuse and emotional abuse. It is because of them that husbands cannot retire early and lead a peaceful life.
17. A compulsory subject on Domestic violence should be there for all streams of senior collage : so that the students coming out of collage (particularly males) are not machines but gentlemen and treats female counter parts with respect. Same logic applies to females : they should know that they are no marrying to the “king” of their dreams but an ordinary human being who can get wild at times. (just as they get emotional and wild at times)
18. This is the time when spiritual learning has assumed paramount importance. Concept of Karma, paap, punya, effects of doing evil karma, concepts of hevan and hell as explain in Garud pooraan, Das Bodh, Geeta, Nath Bhagwat etc should be taught to students at junior and senoir collage level. The message is clear : if you do evil you will get evil. This message should be well understood by girls so that they know that by harassing elder people by false allegations they are building up a lot of evil karma the effects of which later they will have to face – the law of karma always works – be it satya yoog or kali yoog.Transliteration of those spiritual books should be made compulsory for study from 11th std upto the last year of senior collage. Every Hindu must be well aware of teachings of the Geeta : This great book should be compulsory to all streams : be it medicine, engineering. Other books like “The Tibetan book of the Dead” should be encouraged. Main idea here is to instill fear for doing evil.
Dear Friend,
I am impressed with this thought provoking effort!!!
Can you tell me about yourself. Join our movement. We need your passion and vision.
Mail me personally at indianhusbands @ yahoo. com
Hi Jinesh,
This is a brilliant discussion on your blog. Though, didn't find enough time to read everyone... Wish I can, later.
This is also a brilliant blog!
Keep up the great work,
Regards,
Chintan Zaveri.
Can I ask for advice anonymously?
I visited the form at: http://www.mynation.net/advice/
However, it says: "Please fill in all fields marked with a *"
I don't want to disclose my name, unless you can guarantee privacy.
I am not a 498A victim. However, I am tormented terribly by my in-laws. My wife has left me already ... only under influence of my mother-in-law ...
I understand this isn't a place to shed tears, ... :-)
Would you or SIF be in a position to read about my problem and advise?
Sorry, I didn't evn contact you using the right medium.
Dear Anonymous Victim Friend,
You may choose to write to me on indianhusbands at-the-rate yahoo dot com and share your problem. I guarantee you privacy. but you will have to disclose your details to us. I am sure you will not have problem in doing that once we assure you privacy on your information. else call on our mumbai helpline 9224 335577.
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